Copywriting: Business Basics + Best Practices w/ Sara Gillis

I’ve been wanting to take a whole episode to talk about the ins & outs of the business of copywriting (as well as best copywriting practices). And don’tcha know… my friend Sara Gillis felt the same way! We took different roads to get here, but we’ve learned some similar lessons & we want to pass on that wisdom to you. Whether you’re a copywriter getting started in business or a business owner writing your own copy & wanting to learn more about how to actually do that—you’re gonna get lots out of this conversation! Grab a pen & thank me later.

With this episode you’ll be able to:

• Discover Sara’s copywriting journey & evolution.
• Learn some simple copywriting & optimization tips for websites & blogs.
• Uncover the best business advice Sara & Brittany have for copywriters. 

Connect w/ Sara:
Instagram
Website
Podcast
Quiz

Links & Resources:
Copywriter on Call: Brittany’s interview
Tiny PNG
Favorite business contract templates

Related Episodes:
Celi: Grow Your Business
Steph: Web Design

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Transcript

Brittany Herzberg: 0:06

Welcome to the basic be podcast, a show for the wannabe SEO savvy service providers among this for the coaches and consultants who dream of becoming known for their storytelling skills. Not to mention the solopreneurs who straight up need to master all things social proof to increase sales. After a little reluctantly, fully committing to this online rather business, I quickly realized I needed to get people to come to me, I needed to tell them I was here and how I could support them. I dove headfirst into social proof which led me to SEO, which led me to storytelling. And now it gives me great joy to share what I've learned with other business owners so they skip the hard stuff and ease straight into sales. This podcast gives you expert insights, actionable takeaways, and casual combos with some of the online world's best and brightest experts and strategists. I think that's enough of an intro. So here we go. Welcome back to the Basic B podcast. I am stoked that you're here. And of course you're in for another amazing conversation. Today I'm joined by my friend Sara Gillis. I didn't even check if that's how I should say green, but we're just gonna roll with it. Yes. So we've already been having a blast. And I was like, we should probably hit record. So we're going to be having kind of like a back and forth copy chat. We're going to be talking about how to optimize web pages and then whatever else comes up, because I can already see we're probably gonna have side streets in theory here for that. But before we get into this, let me give you a quick intro and you know, welcome Sara to the show. As a copywriter at what Sara said copy coach and host of a copywriter on call podcast. Sara Gillis helps female creative business owners especially photographers stand out through words. After teaching writing for nearly a decade, Sara left education to help business owners show up authentically online by crafting website copy. That is word magic for their ideal clients. In her work with clients, Sarah shares practical advice to infuse creative business with storytelling, and heart. Sarah, I'm so stoked to have you my friend. Thanks

Sara Gillis: 2:06

so much for letting me be here. It's so fun. For letting you be here. Yeah. Let me knock on the door and walk in and sit down and like have a conversation.

Brittany Herzberg: 2:17

I'm so excited. All right. But of course, I gotta ask you the question. Okay. So there's no wrong answers, as usual. But here's the question, which do you believe is the most important for sales? SEO, social proof or storytelling?

Sara Gillis: 2:33

Storytelling? Is my answer.

Brittany Herzberg: 2:36

Say more. Say more.

Sara Gillis: 2:40

I'm a storyteller at heart. I am a sucker for a good ol human interest story. I'm educationally trained as a storyteller as both in like an English major, but also I was like a journalism major. And so the human interest piece is always something that I respond to just personally. And I feel like when it comes to sales, in order for it to not have the ick factor, it needs to be based in story. And it needs to be based in human interest. So that's my answer. I'm

Brittany Herzberg: 3:11

very here for that. I had a feeling it was gonna be storytelling, what it was like, and I'm excited to see what she says. So yeah, not shocked. I mean,

Sara Gillis: 3:18

I feel like all of them play a definite role. But for me, it's it always comes back to the story.

Brittany Herzberg: 3:24

Yeah. And I know, I talked in your group, and I always forget, like the subject, but I talked about case studies with your group, right? Yeah. So that for me, case, studies encapsulate all three. So I feel like there's no wrong answer. All of them are right, if you bundle them together, but also like, if you say none of them, we can't be friends anymore.

Sara Gillis: 3:43

None of them. It's all about being a used car salesman.

Brittany Herzberg: 3:47

That, was it that please. Alright, so with this conversation, I've had some ideas of where we could go, but I'm totally excited to see wherever this like, I'm sure we're gonna meander, it's gonna be great. It's gonna be meandering. And one thing I do want to know, though, is we kind of hit on this before I hit record, but like, what inspired you to get into the world of copywriting?

Sara Gillis: 4:07

that's a loaded question for me. So it's kind of fun. I mean, ever since I wrote my first story in fourth grade, and it was like magic school bus esque. Like traveling through the body like spaghetti. Yes. I was always like, fascinated by what it meant to like, be a writer. And so growing up, I always thought that I would be an author, like, I'd find myself published on the bookshelves. And then I didn't really take my dream beyond that. Like, it was just like, I'm gonna be a writer. And then when it came time to like, graduate high school and do the college thing, it's like, well, of course, I'll be an English major. And God bless my parents. They were never like, you What are you gonna do with that? You're gonna like pick a different thing or like, combine it with something that's more marketable. Like, I didn't get any shade from my parents, which is wonderful. But at the same time, when I was in school, I discovered journalism, and I'm like, Whew, that sounds fun. York Times that can be really cool. So I figured that maybe the book would come after, like the super awesome journalism career. And what really was hilarious to me is that I was literally about to graduate. And I'm like, Whoa, teaching would be cool. I never took an education class in my entire college career didn't even take like, the exploratory class that like, you know, all of my professors told me I should. And I'm like, No, I'm, I'm a writer, I'm fine. But then I had this experience in the Twin Cities where I really figured out that teaching could be cool. And then it didn't have to be like the boring curriculum standards. I'm just teaching you grammar. This is a snooze fest. And so after that, I'm like, well, shoot, I'm literally weeks away from graduation, I'm still going to do the thing, I'm still going to walk across the stage. But maybe I should give this teaching thing a try. And so I took a year and I worked in social media and realized that that wasn't, lighten me up. And so I got into graduate school and had a teaching assistantship, and I'm like, we're gonna see this teaching thing out. And I taught for a while and, you know, got my master's degree in literature taught for a while at the college level really loved it. And then bam, burnout hit, I was teaching online for probably the bulk of my collegiate teaching experience. And there's no off button when it comes to teaching online like to do it. Well. I really feel like it's hard to turn it off. And so if my students would, you know, email me on a Saturday morning, I would be that teacher responding because I cared. And when burnout hit, I couldn't get out. Like it was rough. And so for me, it was about what do I do after I leave the classroom, I have to leave the classroom. I can't keep burning this candle. I can't keep, you know, serving the heck out of my students, but not serving me and not serving my family not being a person. And not to mention, like the writer self in me was not getting nurtured at all. So it was about what do I do after I leave the classroom. And that's where copywriting came in. So, for me, it was about trying to figure out, how can I make a living as a writer, but not in a way that like, makes me married to my work in the sense that like, I would have to sell my soul to the newspaper or the magazine, or, you know, uproot my family, which was growing at that point. And so, for me, it was about how can I build a career that allows me to write and feel that part of me, but still allows a little bit of that teacher love to come through that service, that servant heart, but at the same time, no burn out insight? Let's try and figure that out. And for me, copy was the answer. I love

Brittany Herzberg: 7:51

that. So did you go seek that out? Or was there something that showed up for you that you were like, oh, copywriting, da. Yeah,

Sara Gillis: 7:58

I mean, I sought it out real hard. Like, it was something that I was desperate to figure out what is next. And I've always been, like a blogger or writer at heart, I started blogging in 2008, and never really quit. And it was always in different iterations. Right? Like, you know, I'm a young married person type of blog, and it was, you know, wedding blogging before that. And after that, it was about, you know, blogging about our family and our kids and raising humans in a world like this. And so it was kind of a, a natural iteration to think about websites from that blogging space, and then to think about the words on websites. And so it was kind of something that developed organically, but at the same time, like I knew, I didn't know what it meant to be a copywriter. And I needed some know how. And so that was something I had to actively seek out and build skills as I was working the job that caused me burnout.

Brittany Herzberg: 8:52

That is so cool, because I actually kind of feel like I came at it from the complete opposite lens, like I, from the age of five to 18, I thought I was going to be a teacher.

Sara Gillis: 9:02

That is hilarious. That was never on my radar for me.

Brittany Herzberg: 9:05

Oh my gosh, it was like front and center, like to the point where I'm still friends with some of my teachers. And some of them I have actually told me that they listened to the podcast, which was absolutely mind blowing, and really, really cool. But like I befriended my teachers, I stayed in touch with that. And they were incredible mentors and role models for me growing up, the bulk of them are women. And so for me, it was very easy to see myself in them, and to connect with them. And like, if I'm being honest, my brain was always kind of like, analyzing what they were doing. And I'm like, Okay, I will do that when I'm a teacher. No, I will not do that when I'm a teacher. And I was like, very much like grading them in my own way in my head, experiencing their teaching styles, which is like, just so funny, but most of my teachers I absolutely adore there were only a few where I was like, hmm, we need to check some stuff here. Are we sure that this started Yeah, but no, like, I totally thought I was gonna be a teacher. And then that I didn't pan out and I realized I wanted more freedom more creative freedom. So then I bounced around from like, I'm going to be a lawyer. Nope, I'm good. Take that job home, I'm gonna be a therapist. Nope, let's take that job home. I'm going to be pediatric PT. That was one that I really got stuck on being a Pediatric Physical Therapy. I love kids. I love animals. I love teaching like all of those things. And like, for that would be a fun thing to do. And so on my way to becoming a PT, I discover massage therapy by way of like conversation with a friend of a friend. And I was like that and we go do that. Look at one school, signed up, became a massage therapist never wanted to work for myself, but I had this client who was like, You should really go work for yourself. Like, what's your next step? He was a retired business guy. And we just kind of like always poking and poking. And I was like, Okay, fine. Like, I'll go look around. And anyway, ended up where he found myself with massage therapy, had my business was able to have a lot of my clients come with me when I left working at a chiropractic office and went off on my own, which was like, absolutely magical. And that never ever happened. So I did that. And I did have a website, and it was word of mouth for the longest. And then finally, I had a website, had never heard of SEO had never heard of keywords, I knew exactly what I wanted to write and how I wanted the website to look. So I just did that. I just talked to the person as if they were brand new to massage therapy and like, either had had bad massage experiences, didn't know what it could be like, had never had a massage or whatever that was, I was like, I want to know how to get to me what it's going to be like once they're here, the benefits, they can expect what I'm like, so all of that stuff. So I knew what I wanted to say on the website. And lo and behold that work. And people found me and they found me on Google. And of course, the website was there to validate once people were like, oh, you should go see Brittany, they were like, well, who does she did it, I'm gonna go type on the computer and go to her website. So that was really cool, but then lock down happen. And I had never heard of like a funnel, I'd never heard of really a webinar, or any of that, which is funny because I did have a blog in 2011 that I didn't really keep up with that had nothing to do with what I do now. And so like I was in the blogging game, I liked writing, I didn't know what shape that would take. And they find this webinar I find this summit discover I'm a copywriter discover, I have this skill that people actually will pay for. And I was like, let me learn more. This sounds cool. Yeah. So and in the end, I ended up here. So it's really cool to hear how different people end up in this passion. People end up here and the paths are

Sara Gillis: 12:26

very different. Amen. Yeah. It's something I never saw coming. Like my parents are steady Eddie employees, like they have been, like, super devoted to like the same company for decades. And I'm here, I'm like, I'm walking away from a pension. I'm walking away from my guaranteed, you know, safe career to start my own business. They're like, what, what are you doing? I mean, again, God bless them, because they were like, Okay, you do that. But it's so foreign to me that I own my own business. But at the same time, I can't imagine doing it differently. Now, now that I know what creative freedom is like now that I know what it's like to be responsible for myself, but to be able to dream big, and then put plans in place to make it happen. Like I can't imagine living a different way. No,

Brittany Herzberg: 13:15

I can't either. A few years ago, I tried being an employee again. And I'm like, I hate this life. And I was the person that I saw a lot of instability with jobs in my life. Yeah. And there was a lot of moving moving jobs and physically moving and so I was like, I need something stable. And so for me to now have two businesses under my belt. It's just like, I did what Who am I what happened? Like, how did we get here? Kind of this like thinking about the journey and stuff like that, thinking about how we practice and what we do and the work that we provide? What is something that you wish more copywriters knew whether it's about the skill set where the journey or like actually doing things? Like what's something that comes to mind that you wish more copywriters knew?

Sara Gillis: 13:57

I think for me, I had to really give myself permission to evolve as a person, but also as a business owner. And like when I started out, I mean, it was 2020 My business is a pandemic, baby. Yeah. And when I started out, it was all about serving real estate professionals. And I love realtors, they serve a great purpose, but the idea of serving them today just feels a little bit confining. It feels a little bit transactional, which is of course, like that makes sense. It's the nature of their work. And now in this place where I serve photographers and creatives, like I get to like dream every day I get to tell stories every day for people who like are responsible for making memories or preserving memories. I get to tell stories for people who make art and that is a different thing every day and I'm sure that there's differences and nuances in you know, real estate copywriting but it just doesn't light me up as much as it did initially. And allow Think myself permission for my client base to evolve for my own passions to evolve for my business to evolve. Like, I think that's something I really want copywriters to know, is that what you're doing today, you may love it, and it may totally change and you may still love it, you may love it more. And it's okay to allow it to change and grow, and to allow your clients to ebb and flow in that way, too. Yeah.

Brittany Herzberg: 15:25

And even to go somewhere, go with something, go away from it and come back like it is okay. I can't agree with you more, because that's a question I get a lot is like, well, what should I start with in copywriting? I'm always like, I took on everything. I took all the projects, because I wasn't sure what I wanted to focus on. I have not realized that, you know, web copywriting projects, where it's like, I want a five page website. That's not for me. And it took me doing a few of those projects to be like, Oh, no, I don't love this. Here are the reasons why that's just not my jam. So I really love having the SEO stuff, having the case study copywriting, I love it. It's my jam. And I'm doing the done for you stuff for clients, where they're giving me information, and I'm over here spitting out, you know, a case study or whatever. And then I'm also teaching people how to do that for themselves. Because whether it's a budget thing or a desire to learn, or you want to also have this as a deliverable, like, it's really fun to watch that grow and have these different offers. And just like you said, to let yourself have that, let it expand, let it contract, let some things go focus on one group of clients, you know, move over to another one. I did that too, because I started out with healthcare providers. They were in my book, which makes sense for you, right? I mean, they were right there. Oh, you're writing stuff. Can you write this? Can you write this here? And I was like, Sure, of course, I can write and I loved it. And I still feel good about the work that I did. And as soon as I woke up one morning, it was like case studies. I had never heard anyone talk about case studies. I legit woke up one morning had a dream. It was actually at the time I woke up. And it was like client success stories. Like keyword research shows, no one is looking for that shit. They're looking for case studies. So that is the importance of doing keyword research. I would say for most copy projects, maybe not all because I could see an argument against needing keywords in email copywriting, for example. But still, it helps me find an email if I do a search inside my Gmail inbox or whatever. But you know, if you're not including some kind of keyword strategy, even if it's like the simplest thing, yeah, if you're not doing that, you're kind of half assing the job in my mind, because yeah, you're already putting out these words, why not? Have them actually do some work for you? I talk all the time about how keywords are extra credit for business owners, you know, SEO is extra credit. So it's like, yeah,

Sara Gillis: 17:45

why not?!

Brittany Herzberg: 17:47

Is there anything else that you could think that you would want to share with a copywriter be it on on deliverable or journey or anything? Yeah, I

Sara Gillis: 17:54

think this is very tactical. But I would have started out with an LLC right from the get go instead of being a sole proprietor for a hot minute because the switchover was annoying. And it makes sense to find somebody in your sphere in your world who can advise you on things like that. It just made more sense for me to be an LLC. And so the fact that I had somebody telling me you should be a sole proprietor first made me have to undo that later. And that was just a mess. So I think trying to find your trusted people in your network, whether it's an accountant or a lawyer, or whatever, and really getting their help from the foundation on is really important. I found an accountant in my town by literally searching accountant. And it wasn't like, it wasn't like a small business accountant. It wasn't, you know, somebody who was really entrenched in the day to day of what my life would look like, as a business owner. It was somebody who was, you know, working as part of a big CPA firm. And, again, that could be a really good fit for someone but it wasn't the right fit for me. And so I think what I would do over again, is getting the right people on my team quote unquote, from the get go, just because the forward backward Yeah, undoing redoing piece was really frustrating in my first year of business on top of like, trying to figure out who I wanted to serve and what kind of business owner I wanted to be and all the things like that. I feel like my first

Brittany Herzberg: 19:20

year of business just looks like a absolute cluster.

Sara Gillis: 19:23

Yeah, it's a dumpster fire.

Brittany Herzberg: 19:24

It's an absolute dumpster. No matter what we do to like, try to avoid that and come out the gate. Like here's everything in it's so pretty, it's just not. Oh, but I will add another tactical thing on top of what you said totally, very much agree with you about getting your providers in having your like support team. Yeah, but I will also say having a really solid contract can be a lifesaver. And I only just last year up to my contract game. I'm going to link the ones below that I use because I love them and even after being in business 2021 is really when I solidified my copyright big business. So even after three years, I was like, I never thought about this, I never thought about that option. So even having something like that, which gives you such confidence as a newer business owner to be able to go, oh, no, but in the contract, it says this, that feels weird. Like if you're listening or watching this, and you're like, but I can't do that it feels weird. It never stops feeling weird, you just get a little more confident and a little less, like second guessing of yourself. But having that contract to refer back to is like life changing.

Sara Gillis: 20:31

I agree. I mean, like, we feel icky, when we're like, per my last email, but it has that vibe, like per the contract, here's what we agreed to. And sometimes it really saves your butt. Like, it's important to have that for your clients protection, but also just to have that for yourself. So I love that example. That's gold. Yeah,

Brittany Herzberg: 20:51

and I don't know if you ever I've been brought on on a few different copywriting projects, which I'm so grateful for, because I was able to see two really big names actually have to refer back to the contract. And I was able to watch them navigate that. And I'm like, Oh, my gosh, really? That's just I'm like over here with popcorn. Just over you're like, what's the next new?

Sara Gillis: 21:09

That's so interesting. I've seen it from a design perspective, not necessarily from a copy perspective. And it's been really interesting to see, okay, well, this is the deliverable. And this was your responsibility, and you have to fulfill that end. Yeah. So it's interesting, for sure.

Brittany Herzberg: 21:24

It was so interesting. One was a big quiz project, and which was actually my first type of deliverable that I ever did like the big one. Why would I do that? That was like jumping in the deep end of like copywriting because there's a lot. Anyone who's like, oh, writing a quiz is easy. There's lots of deliverables. There's lots of moving parts. It's very strategic. Yeah, it's fun. And it's totally worth it in the long run. But like, it is not a simple handshake. So one was a quiz. And then one was a web copy project. And they were just like, these big, robust deliverables. And for different reasons, business owners had to be like, well, you know, that's what we said over here. Let me draw your attention back over here and just watching them navigate that was really, yeah. Really helpful to be able to watch someone do that.

Sara Gillis: 22:09

Yeah, absolutely. And somebody with a little bit more experience and a little bit more street cred, like, oh, blast, that's the best was the best way to learn.

Brittany Herzberg: 22:16

Oh, my gosh, it was so good. So let's see, you mentioned design. So I would love to know, like visually, is there anything we can be doing better on our own sites, or you know, even if that's something that's a deliverable for some copywriters, like anything we could be improving on?

Sara Gillis: 22:31

I'm speaking a little bit out of school here. But I love design, like, making sure that my website looks good on mobile, and I swear, I change one thing, and I'm like, Wait, I gotta go fix it on mobile. And I'ma show it girl. So I love show it as kind of the back end. But if I don't keep up with it, it will like sneak up on me and somebody DM me once and said, I can't read this on your website. And I'm like, Excuse me, like, what?

Brittany Herzberg: 22:58

They're like, Yeah,

Sara Gillis: 22:59

I'm on my mobile, I'm gonna go No. And so it's like, it's one of those things that even though I, as a copywriter know the importance of it, it can't be said enough. Thinking about mobile is so important. And thinking about whitespace on mobile, and about the opportunity to increase your font size, even just a little bit on mobile. Like just user accessibility wise, that's huge for me.

Brittany Herzberg: 24:19

Yeah, I definitely got a DM like that, too. And I was like, drop everything. Forget the client deliverables. Like I have to fix this. Yeah, like, if you go look at my website, I'm on Squarespace. I'm sure things are not optimized for mobile, the best that they could be. But that's something that once I hand off that project to someone in the very near future, I'm going to just be like, make everything pretty accessible. And like all the things and it'll be nice, but like I'm doing okay, and I do a lot of SEO, website audits. And so many people like the speed isn't fast enough, you know, so you're not alone in that by any means. But also making sure that you fix any broken links or 404 error pages and uploading images that are lighter. That's how I describe it, at least like compressing them. And there's something called Tiny PNG, which I'll make sure I link below. There's a yeah, just compressing and again, I am not perfect, my stuff is not perfect, you will go to my website and you will find errors and that's okay. 100% So like don't worry about that. I made a note to myself though and I recorded an interview with Steph O'Keeffe. She's someone that you should definitely like go look at her stuff. She does web design and SEO and copywriting so kind of the idea that, Yeah she's not a so she has a team it's an agency there's yeah there are people's think

Sara Gillis: 25:34

that's why my business coach was like wait a minute, you are going to do this right. That's definitely something I would do and I just think of the pie in the sky idea not the actual how yeah wants to be boring by the how. Yeah,

Brittany Herzberg: 25:47

that's the part where I get stuck I'm just like the pot at the end of the rainbow and they'll fight you know, figure out how to get there. But I always come up with like the most complicated like cobbled together row map of how to get.

Sara Gillis: 25:57

I know, I feel the same way, like my husband's very realistic and very grounded. And he's a steady Eddie guy like he's been in the same job for almost 10 years. And it's like, this is great. And I'm over here like, what if I did this? Like? God bless him, because I mean, we balanced each other out nicely. But yeah, it's important to I think, have both you have to have those pie in the sky dreams, but you also have, you know, somebody who brings you down to reality, whether that's a business coach, a business partner, a friend in your group, your spouse, whatever it is, having somebody bring you down and say, Okay, what is the actual plan? Let's not just, you know, launch the thing and figure it out later. Been there.

Brittany Herzberg: 26:38

Yeah, I've had to stop doing that. But I've done a really good job, thanks to Sally of like, not doing that so much anymore. It's

Sara Gillis: 26:44

a beautiful thing. I think it's an important piece as a business owner to dream big. But it's also important to like, you know, set plans to those dreams, for sure.

Brittany Herzberg: 26:51

Yeah. And for me, like having the dreams and then writing them down. And so I don't know if you know much about human design, but I'm a manifesting generator. So I'm like the idea like ping ping, like, all day long. Yeah,

Sara Gillis: 27:02

I'm just a generator. I feel like I missed out on like, the manifesting business. And like, that sounds fun. I want that. I'm just a generator. So I'm with you there.

Brittany Herzberg: 27:10

You're not just generator, haha. So my word just know you guys master stuff like you master. But I think the manifesting generator part is like, we do have all the ideas, and we're able to like not master things, but we're able to have all these things that, you know, for example, this podcast, SEO, storytelling, social proof, I have multiple things. And I'm like, here's how I can put them together and package them together. And here's what you can do and move through them a little bit faster and a little bit quicker. So like, everybody's got their strengths. I think it's really amazing that generators just like master something.

Sara Gillis: 27:41

I mean, that's kind of fun. At least Yeah, no, I'm gonna have you in my back pocket when I'm feeling like why can't manifest. That'd be so cool.

Brittany Herzberg: 27:50

There's a lot of ideas over here. Like, I don't know if you want that in your work.

Sara Gillis: 27:55

I don't know. It's just like when I got my results, I'm like, I'm just a let down. I went the other adjective!

Brittany Herzberg: 28:06

I always want to be the rarest one. I think I got spoiled by being an INFJ. But the Myers Briggs thing.

Sara Gillis: 28:11

Oh yeah. I don't even remember what I am. I am I'm an Enneagram one, which is like, me, too. Oh, girl. It's for us. I'm gonna need you to put some puck in that step. Anger is the default emotion is like when I had an Enneagram. Coach when she told me that I'm like, that's why I'm a one. Yeah, I'm not angry guys. It's just just sometimes just frustration is frustration. And frustration moves you to act.

Brittany Herzberg: 28:43

If there's anything that's like in your way of like you said, getting to that idea. If any of those steps hang you up. You're like, are

Sara Gillis: 28:49

you just want to rip everyone to shreds, for better for worse. You're like this is what do you signed up for God bless as Enneagram ones. Amen. Just like round of applause for I love it. Moment of silence for us one of the two. Yeah, either

Brittany Herzberg: 29:05

one moment of silence. And then the clapping Well, yeah, round it off at that. Yeah, I do want to hit on blogging before we go away. Because you started off with that. I recently discovered that I started my blog in 2011. It kinda like forgot about that one. And then I recorded an episode recently, where I was like, I had a blog in 2011. I was already doing this. It's just like stuff you don't think about that actually folds into the skill that you have. So you're like an OG blogger? And this is a loaded one. But like, what have you seen change with blogging? And what do you think matters today? Yeah,

Sara Gillis: 29:37

I mean, I always tell people that blogging is like dipping your toes into SEO and trying to get your website to work harder for you. And so it's something that I feel like everybody can do. You don't have to be awesome at it. You just have to think about it intentionally, like 2008. Like there wasn't a lot out there about keywords. Like I just blogged about what I wanted to, you know, if I want to talk about the Backstreet Boys, I was gonna do it. But now as a business owner, and even if you're if you're not in business, I think it's still an important piece to think why do I want to write about this? What is there that's pushing me to write about this? And is there some intention that I can add to the mix here? Is there some pre thinking pre planning? Is there some benefit that I can provide? And how can I make it universally applicable? Maybe you're not the Walmart of the world, like where you serve everybody, but at the same time, like, there should be a relatability factor in any sort of blogging. And I feel like we're starting to get that now, like blogging is just like glorified human interest, right. And so, I mean, bringing it back around to where we started. I feel like if you blog from a human interest perspective, if you blog about something that people find interesting, and you put some storytelling in it, and yeah, some SEO too. Do it's a great way to make your website work harder for you make friends with Google, but also to just flex that thought leadership muscle and start to position yourself as someone with expertise. And that's important for any business owner. So that's what I like to do with blogs. And honestly, I think that for a long time, I was overcomplicating it like, I was trying to make it like

Brittany Herzberg: 31:18

Docker type one would do that.

Sara Gillis: 31:21

I know, I was trying to like make it be like the best blog post ever. And it doesn't need to be. It's just little stacks on a big tower here to get the momentum that you need. Yeah,

Brittany Herzberg: 31:32

exactly. And I'm so so glad that you brought up intentionality. Because that is something that I talk about a lot with SEO, you don't have to even really do keyword research in order to write a blog that's going to actually go out there and market for you. If you were just really clear on, you know, I said at the beginning of the podcast, where I had my website, and it was about massage therapy, I did not know a freaking thing about SEO. But I was really clear on the information that I wanted to get out to people. And then I was like throwing headlines in to make a queue, which doesn't function of them. They really like help organize the information. I didn't know that. But you know, we all make mistakes. And then we learn from things, we learn best practices. If you keep intentionality at the center at the forefront, and you're just really thoughtful, and you keep that person who's gonna end up on this blog post in mind, you're gonna write some amazing stuff. I need to do an episode on this. But there's something that Google talks about called EA T, who I don't know about this EA T said EA t. So Google wants you to hit on these four elements and really everything that you write. So case studies are built for this blogs are totally built for this. But what it stands for is experience, expertise, authoritativeness and trustworthiness.

Sara Gillis: 32:46

Oh, that makes sense.

Brittany Herzberg: 32:47

Right? And so storytelling allows us to bring that in and seamlessly. Case studies allow us to bring that in seamlessly blogs, like I said, it's primed for it. Yeah. So if you can do that, you're going to be favored by the Google gods. And then Google is gonna play matchmaker between you and your ideal client. And your blog is therefore going to start working for you. So I'm really thankful that you brought that up.

Sara Gillis: 33:09

Yeah, I love that. I didn't know the EEAT but I'm gonna ideate on that for a minute. That's really cool.

Brittany Herzberg: 33:15

Just let that sparkle upstairs. Yeah, sparkle upstairs. Amen. I don't know. I come up with weird Dagat Oh, my gosh, this has been amazing. Because it's been so fun. I am sure I could like, talk with you forever in a day. I want to make sure though, that we leave time for like, you know, people can find you and how they can get in your worlds and tell us all the things there are. Yeah, of course. So

Sara Gillis: 33:35

thanks so much for having me. It's been so fun. Yeah, I online. I'm what Sarah said. So what Sarah said.com is my website on Instagram. I'm Hello, Sarah Gillis, and no h en Sara, because that's the way it should be spelled everybody. Just kidding. So degrees gonna throw that in. Just gonna throw that in. Otherwise, I'm really excited about this new product that I have. We were talking about quizzes and how hard they are to write I wrote one and It was hard guys, I told you but it's a brand voice quiz. And so it helps you to determine like your brand voice type. And from there, I have a product that kind of helps you to take the guesswork out of what that actually means and what that actually could look like for you. And so it's about how to utilize chat TPT good old AI to try and hack your brand voice and not in a way that it's like copy, paste, I'm done. But in a way that like, ooh, let me brainstorm some things. Let me think about my ideal client in a creative way. And then turn out some ideas in my brand voice. So that's coming. It's really exciting. I'm pumped for it. But like it's a two parter. So quiz first than the product. And they work together really nicely. So all of that is at what Sarah said.com. I'm sure that it will be something that continues to evolve. But I totally love helping business owners to try and take a little bit of like the writer's block out of it. When it comes to creating copy or content, really, it works for both. So that's my heart on it. But again, thanks so much for having me. No,

Brittany Herzberg: 35:13

of course, I've been gushing over this interview. And so I'm excited for this because I knew it was gonna be a great conversation. You and I have already had a few touch points. And so I was like, this is just going to be amazing. But I will make sure everything that you said is linked below. I'm really excited to see your quiz and the product and just watch that blow up for you. Yeah, it's

Sara Gillis: 35:30

gonna be fun. I it's always good to stretch ourselves. And this was a definite definite stretch for me. So it's been fun to see it come to life.

Brittany Herzberg: 35:37

Yeah, I'm sure quizzes are they're giant beasts, but they're really like I said, they're super effective. They're really worthwhile, but they're massive. Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's been fun. I'm so excited for you. Okay. Yeah. Thank you so much. This has been amazing. I'm sure we'll have to have you back. We'll come up with a reason to have you. Yeah, girl. Let's Do it I'm game. Thank you for tuning in listening, watching whatever you're doing and we will see you next time. That was really something wasn't it? What that really sink in and guide you toward being to answer to even more Google questions. Thank you so much for joining me this episode. You are the reason this show exists and that it keeps growing. You know, thanks to all those follows and reviews. If you know someone who could benefit from what we've shared, send it to them. We don't do shy around here. If you thought of clarifying or follow up questions while listening, you know what to do. Say hi on Instagram. Check the show notes for all the things that were mentioned and I'll talk to you soon bread